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"Can female students have it all after
graduating from the University?"
Estatement
SEPTEMBER 18, 2013
with Associate Prof. Elizabeth Armstrong
and Business junior Sumana Palle
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Sumana Palle, a Business junior
and executive board member for
What the F feminist magazine,
and Associate Prof. Elizabeth
Armstrong, a sociologist who
specializes in gender and higher
education research, met at The
Michigan Daily newsroom to
discuss this question. Below are
selected excerpts from their con-
versation.
Sumana Palle: I mean, I know the
intention wasn't bad, but when I
first read the question I was kind
of offended, I felt like it was a bit
sexist. It was such a gendered
question as if something different
is expected of male students than
female students. Which it is, in
reality, but I feel like at this point
we should try and combat that as
opposed to asking if it is possible
for females to have the same qual-
ity of life - I felt that the question
was implying - as males.
Prof. Elizabeth Armstrong:
That's interesting. I guess the way
to rephrase the question ... is how
do both men and women kind of
build lives out of college where
they can combine work and fam-
ily, personal and professional suc-
cess, and what are the conditions
for that?
SP: Right, and I felt like the ques-
tion should more be what can we
do to make sure that female stu-
dents can have it all, as vague as
that is. What can we do to make
sure everyone regardless of race,
gender, sexuality, whatever can
have whatever they want to have,
and that should be the question.
EA: Expanding the options.
,,,SP: Right.
EA: But, then of course, that
immediately leads to what are
some of the things that tend to
reduce those options for people.
And of course, that would vary
depending on what kind of group
they're in whether it's gender or
race or disability or sexual orien-
know, one of the things graduat-
ing from the University of Michi-
gan will buy most people, is the
opportunity to have the kind of
quality of work where they'll
have the flexibility where they
will be able to leave work to go to
the doctors appointment where-
as other people aren't going to be
able to have that if they're going
to get fired by taking the time.
SP: Which, going back to what
you were saying about the man
having to sacrifice, that's the
other problem I had with the
question that it kind of made it
seem like only females have to
face this choice but men do too.
EA: Well there's just a lot of
things that it's possible to want.
So, I mean, in that sense there it
comes to a kind of value-based
thing. There's the issue of what
kind of structural arrangements
can be set up to make it possible
for people to have lots of differ-
ent things that they value in their
life but then it's also the case that
it probably isn't possible for any-
body - man or woman - to really
fully engage in the nurturing
of, like, five children and have a
super, super amazingly ambitious
career. I mean, they may be able
to have five children and do that
if they don't actually fully par-
ticipate themselves in the process
of nurturing them, but there is a
finite quality of life. I mean, we're
not going to all climb Mt. Everest
and be president and have ten
children. People are always going
to have to make choices about
what things they care about, and
that's men and women. It's just
women are usually put in that sit-
uation of having to make harder
choices.
SP: I completely agree! ... And I
do see where the question was
coming from, I don't want to
completely bash the question,
but in society, like you said,
women do have to make harder
choices and for us, I feel like it's
always a fight.
Are we, sending
foreign talent
back home?
tation, so, I don't know.
making hard choices. So, it
shouldn't be a kind of dichotomy.
SP: Exactly.
SP: I feel like a lot of our conver-
sation about strong women tends EA: Yeah, bu
to surround, well, either you're and it's oft
this way or this way. The conver- often put in
sation tends to be divisive. You're put on the i
either the woman who chooses women who
to have the career and you're the she opting o
bitch and you're the one who sac- her career"v
rifices what is "important." And of circumsta
you have the women who choose are placed a
the family home, and, you know hard decisio
you're the weak link who went
against everything strong women SP: Exactly.
have fought for in history and, I
don't know, I think the question EA: So it's n
implies there's a black and white ferent so mi
when really ... push people
ut it often gets pushed
en assumed and it's
a situation where it's
ndividual, where it's
are deciding, "Oh, is
ut or is she pursuing
when, in fact, the sort
nces in which people
re sort of forcing the
ins ...
ot the people are dif-
Lch as the decisions
really in a dramatic
no longer in traditional gender
roles where the guy's the one
who kind of can have it all - he
has the wife who chooses to stay
home with the family. That's no
longer in existence.
EA: No, and I think it's still pos-
sible for some men, but I think
that people miss out. When men
are in a situation, or women,
where their work demands are
such where they can't partici-
pate in the kind of meaning-
ful moments in the lives of the
people they care about, whether
it's children or other loved ones,
where their at work and can't
leave when there's a school play
or a major hospital thing going
on or a doctor's appointment. It's
painful, it's not really human if
people can't have the sort of flex-
ibility to do the things they need
to do to take care of the people
in their lives. And that has a real
kind of class component to it
too, because it's likely that, you
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EA: Well, it's usually both "and"
when people really want it all.
They want to be able to be nurtur-
ing and professionally successful.
And both strong and vulnerable
and not have to be forced into
way, either one way or the other.
SP: Right. And I feel like we're
kind of in a changing environ-
ment where it's not just female
students who have to choose
this, it's also the male. We're