Rage 4-Wednesday, October 24, 1979-The Michigan Daily
Interview
Tanzanian President Julius Nyerere is I don't know
ten regarded as one of the two or three not, but I say
uEst important leaders of the Third easier for us. B
can discuss. B
World, and certainly as the political giant will remain the
of Africa. He is the acknowledged leader Third World wil
of the African Frontline States, and as because of the
such has been the key personality in Afr- House, but beca
can liberation movements for almost 20 the United Stat
tions or no elect
years. Nyerere is also the key theorist of Q.: the Cart
"african Socialism." progressive wi
In the following interview, conducted Young-has act
at Nyerere's home in Dar Es Salaam, investment. Ho
Nyerere discusses U.S. policy in South South African p
Africa, the U.S. elections, the issue of NYERERE:
problem, and I 1
African tyrant dictators, socialism, and ter Administrat
the challenges facing a developing peasant rationales giver
African nation gripped by the oil cirsis. South Africa. T
This interview was conducted by Laurie say it would be
Garrett, an award-winning radio reporter, paes to do so
for Pacifica Radio. apartheid, so it
ce them to. But
Q.: I know you are hesitant to speak about excuse to justif
the political affairs of another nation, but you democracy was
made it clear in your book, Crusade for President would
Liberation, that the Third World awaits we have a probl
eagerly the results of an American Presiden- your support on
tial election. How will you be viewing the elec- must carry ou
tions in 1980? educate their pe
NYERERE: Our position is always that moral to suppor
elections in the United States affect our in- South Africa m
terests, and therefore we shall give it keen in- education. Just
terest. But let me ut in)t this way (and I hope democratic stat
there will be no misunderstanding about it): Secondly, they
The United States is capitalist. It -is im- will do good for
perialist. It's a superpower. Hegemonic. The That, in actual f
moral stature which was put forward by Africans-that ar
President Carter made life very easy for us Africans are su
because here is a person you can sit down and that little additi
talk to and he will understand what you are are really doing
talking to him about, and if we say, "We are then don't remo
not fighting for communism in Southern them to the Fr
Africa," he will understand that we are not vesting in South
fighting for communism. If I differ with him I've never sup
he will not think that I have horns. So, it can argument-that
make personal relations easier. that democrati
-I'm not sure it makes all that much dif- because they don
ference in policies. Policies are the policies Q.: Turning to
of the power structure of the United States. servers predict t
And so, we of the Third World naturally of civil war afte
always take an interest in the elections of power. The scee
your country and who is going to be elected; ween the forces
tijt if the United States is disappointing the Muzorewa. And t
Third World, the problem cannot be Carter. "benevolent" rai
The problem is the system! involvement in'
with Tanzania President Nyerere
Whether one is being fair or
a good President makes life
ecause you can sit down you
ut the problems of Tanzania
e same. The problems of the
ll remain the same. Why? Not
person who is in the White
ause of the power structure of
es. And this will continue, elec-
ions.
er Administration-even the
ing represented by Andrew
ively supported South African
w have you viewed the Carter
olicy?
We have discussed this
have not agreed with the Car-
tion. You see, there are two
n for continued investment in
The first is democracy. They
undemocratic to force com-
mething they don't want to do.
do not support opposition to
would be undemocratic to for-
t this using democracy as an
fy evil. Because you see, if
sreally* the issue, then the
[say to the people 'Lookhere,
em in South Africa, and I want
this." And so this government
at an education process to
ople that it is wrong, it is im-
rt an immoral governemt in
with investments. I see no
the excuse that we are a
.e.
y argue that those investment
the Africans in South Africa.
act, if you stop them it is the
*e going to suffer. I say those
ffering enough. Well, inflict
onal suffering also. Or, if you\r
it for the good of the Africans,
ve those dividends, just pass
eedom Fighters. Really, in-
h Africa is blood money. So
pported either the welfare
this helps the Africans-or
c governments can't do it
n't have the power.
Rhodesia, many Western ob-
that that country faces years
er majority rule is placed in
nario calls for fighting bet-
s of Nkomo, Mugabem and
this outlook becomes a sort of
tionale for continued Western
Zimbabwe-to prevent civil
war. What do you think of this outlook? And
the civil war projections?
NYERERE: I must say that it is a great
concern for me. I will confess I don't like the
fact that there are two armies fighting in
Zimbabwe. No liberation-no country-has
had two armies. You can't have a country
with two armies! But you know ZAPU and
ZANU are fond of the British parliamentary
model. I say to them, "Look, if you follow the
British model, then you must have only one
army because Britain has only one army." I
have told them they must overcome this
problem, and we have discussed it until I
think they don't even want to hear from me
anymore. But the situation has not changed. I
am concerned about this, and I think if the
West is concerned about this as well, then this
is a good concern on the part of the West. It
isn't a justification to meddle in thecountry's
affairs, but it is reason for concern.
Q.: Before we look at the rational course of
development in the post-colonial period, I
wonder if we could look at development gone
astray. Where do the Idi Amins and Emperor
Bokassas come from? What do they represent
historically in terms of post-colonial
development for Africa?
NYERERE: Sometimes I think, I, also, am
a racist. When a Bokassa behaves as a
Bokassa I feel bad. When Amin behaves as
Amin I feel bad. There is a sense in which I
am also like those blessed racists who point to
Bokassa or Amin'and say, "Ah! look at Black
Africa." But they don't point to Hitler and
say, "This is a white man." Or to Salazar or
Franco and say, "This is a white man." They
simply say. "This is Hitler. This is Franco.
This is Salazar."
But with Africa they generalize. They say,
"See what is happening in Africa?" I could
just as easily point to Portugal and say, "See
what is happening in Europe?"
So you could say what\s does Bokassa
represent? Bokassa is a tyrant. Amin is a
tyrant. And the workd has had tyrants. They
never started in Africa. Bokassa's hero was
Napoleon. Amin quoted Hitler. So what is
peculiar about the tryant in Africa?
To put it the other way around, also, I would
be claiming a superior position for Africa if
Africa never produced any tyrants at all. I
don't claim any superior position for
Africans. We're not saints. We produce tyran-
ts.
My real problem, what I've been com-
plaining about, is the tendency among
Africans to feel shy in front of these tyrants,
to not denounce them as tyrants. An African
feels ashamed when he sees a tyrant instead
of being angry.
So I don't think it's a development issue in
Africa any more than in Europe, Latin
America, Asia. All these continents have had
their tyrants. These are not racialist tyrants.
They are just tyrants of history.
Well, we are doing very well this year.
Amin is gone. Bokassa is gone. But these are
not the only tyrants that have gone. Somoza is
gone. The Shah of Iran is gone. Well! We
are doing quite well, aren't we?
Q.: You've chosen to follow socialist paths
of development for the Third
World, not just in Africa. Tanzanian socialism
is obviously different from other forms. How
would you describe its ideology?
NYERERE: I would describe our ideology
as socialist. That's all. We're fighting against
capitalism, all of us. We're trying to
establish, I hope, just societies, healthy
relationships between individuals.
We've started from different bases. I am
not a Marxist. I do accept the economics of
Marxism. I do not accept some of the philoso-
hies of Marxism. But even the economies
. have some difficulty. Classically, Marxism is
a socialism of the rich. It is a socialism which
starts with highly developed capitalism, a
highly developed proletariat. At present it is
the United States, under Marxism, which is
really ripe for socialism. It has a proletariat,,
and this proletariat is a product of capitalism
itself.
My problem is, having accepted socialism
as the right development for my country,
whether I should nurture capitalism until I
have the proletariat. In Tanzania* the
dominant class is not the proletariat, it's the
peasants. Socialism here will have to create
wealth here. And so starting from a different
base, our methodology is likely to be dif-
ferent. But I hope the objective is going t be
the same.
I hope we shall succeed with different
methods to establish humane societies where
human beings can live as human beings and
not just be dominated by property. Property
was never intended to dominate human
beings. Property was always intended to ser-
ve human beings. Wealth never was intended
to live side by side with poverty, ever. Wealth
was always intended to discover what light is
to darkness where there is wealth, poverty
disappears; where there is light, darkness
disappears. But capitalism succeeds to work
out this miracle-that wealth can live side ,
by side with poverty, because wealth is used
as power.
Socialism with poverty -equality with
poverty-is a big problem. And so socialists
have accepted the language of affluence. I
think this is a shame. Because that is where
Europe stood. I am using the same kind of
language, as if the wealth was there. It is not
there. We have got to create this wealth.
Q.: Tanzania has sought a course of
agricultural development and self-reliance.
How would you look at the strategy that you
have been following so far?
NYERERE: We can feed ourselves
because of our land distribution. We do not
have landlords. We are a peasant country.
The peasants, have land, and they can grow
what they like. Therefore, if the rains are all'
right, you can trust the peasants will produce
all the food that they need, and enough sur-
plus for the small urban and service
population of Tanzania. So that given us a
base from where we can move.
But structurally, farming has not changed.
Technologically, farming has not changed.
Therefore, our agriculture cannot support a
rapidly growing industrialization. We must
industrialize. But if the momentum of in-
dustrialization was to pick up, become rapid, i
before our farming -has become more ef-
ficient, we would run into trouble: And that is j
our next stage, which is making this farming
produce more good surplus of food and also
raw materials for our industries.
The problem we have now is the major con-
problem of the international community. This
year we are consuming less oil than we con-
sumed in 1972. But we are paying nine times
as much for it. You can't call a country
"developing" when today it is' comsuming
less oil than it was seven years ago. The only
reason why we're not collapsing is also
because of some of our agricultural successes.
I've been talking about. Otherwise, quite
frankly, a country like this could just collap-
se. But this year I am going to spend half of;
our export earnings on oil, is it not going to be
very easy to pay for the improvement of our
farming techniques which we need. This is a
vital problem of all Third World countries, the
non-oil producing countries.
't4,
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hie Yarsfh Etanrial Freeo u
Ninesy Years of Editorial. Freedom
Letters to
Vol. LXXXX, No. 42
News Phone: 764-0552
Edited and managed by students at the University of Michigan
Taiwan ruling must not stand
T, HE HARDLINE opponents of the
United States' long-overdue diplo-
matic initiative with the People's
;Republic of China went to the con-
-stitution and the courts as their last
resort to salvage their out-dated,
inrealistic illusions that Taiwan really
speaks for the Chinese people. In the
'rocess, these hardliners somehow
managed to convince a federal judge
that the Constitution implies
somewhere that Congress has the right
or the power to decide when to
abrogate treaties.
The constitutional implications of
this misguided ruling are perhaps
;more chilling than the tiotential
ramifications-forour new relations with
;China: In his highly-imaginative
;reading of the Constitution, Judge
Gasch has usurped one of the
traditional powers of the executive
branch - the power to solely conduct
this country's dealings with other
nations, to the point of deciding when
to recognize a foreign country and
when to break off diplomatic relations
with another. This semi-autonomy in
the conduct of foreign affairs was en-
trusted in the executive since the foun-
ding fathers believed - and it still
holds true today - that foreign policy
:is too vital to the existence of the
nation and mankind to become inter-
mixed with the domestic political
:bickering that is a characteristic part
of the legislative body.
It is argued by some, such as Sen.
:Barry'Goldwater, (R-Ariz.), that U.S.
commitments are binding forever, and
:should not be subject to change depen-
ding on the whim of the current White
House occupant. That line of reasoning
argues that Congress, as represen-
always looking first at the nation's best
interest. In the Second World War,
while Congress was parroting what it
perceived to be an isolationist trend, it
was the executive who had to look
beyond that contemporary prevailing
trend and act in the nation's best in-
terests. And since then, Congress has
shown that it knows mostly how to
follow, and reflect the mood of the
masses at any given moment, while
failing to look beyond the current fer-
vor. From the Panama Canal treaties
to SALT II, Congress has consistently
demonstrated a dangerous capacity
for practicing election-year politics
with the nation's security, and those
same politically-minded senators are
now trying to derail the U.S./Chinese
diplomatic initiative.
Judge Gasch's decision must be
overturned in the appeal, not so much
that the lower court ruling throws an
unnecessary monkey wrench into the
U.S.'s diplomatic relations with China.
Rather, to require congressional ap-
proval for the abrogation of treaties
sets a dangerous and deadly precedent
for future foreign policy decisions by
tying the executive's hands and sub-
jecting foreign policy to the same kind
of political battering that domestic
issues must take to become law. The
rough-and-tumble of politics must stop
at the water's edge.
EDITORIAL STAFF
Sue Warner ..........................EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
Richard Berke, Julie Rovern..........MANAGING EDITORS
Michael Arkush, Keith Richburg..... EDITORIAL DIRECTORS
Brian Blanchard......................UNIVERSITY EDITOR
To the Daily:
The Spartacus Youth League
has learned that the FBI plans to
be on the Wayne State University
campus on November 5th, at-
tempting to recruit to their
bloody organization. The Federal
Bureau of Investigation is not a
neutral information gathering
society. These swine seek to
recruit mercenary thugs who, for
a few dollars will'be willing to
plan and execute the murders of
new generations of black and
labor militants. Keep the FBI off
campus!
An April 12 article in the South
End made it clear why the FBI is
targeting WSU as a recruitment
spot. "Special agents Edward
Jenkins and Robert E. Lett
visited the South End to explain
agency requirements and restore
the FBI's tarnished image." As
Agent Lett stated, "We need the
assistance of everyone in trying
to recruit Blacks, women, Puerto
Ricans, Indians,'and others."
The FBI needs blacks because
in deeply racist capitalistic
America the bourgeoise state
needs a black-cover. According
to the March 28 Detroit Free
Press FBI director William Web-
ster is "alarmed at the agency's
lack of effectiveness in minority
communities." The FBI's idea of
effectiveness was powerfully
llustrated by the genocidal offen-
sive against the Black Panther
Party. In 1969, Black Panthers
Fred Hampton and Mark Clark
got the full blast of FBI "effec-
-tiveness" when a black FBI
agent infiltrated their
organization and set them up. In
the dead of night the caps kicked
their door down and machine-
gunned them to death in their
beds.
The FBI likes to pretend that it
is just an "apolitical" law enfor-
cement agency, busy. catching
bank robbers and kidnappers.
In their advertisements in the
South End last spring and their
current advertising campaign on
WJZZ, they say nothing of the
primary function of the FBI and
other arms of the capitalistic
secret police-that is, the disrup-
tion and actual annihilation of
opponents of the status quo in the
labor, left, and black movements.
In their propaganda directed at
Detroit's black population they
don't mention Gary Rowe, a self-
confessed KKK killer for the FBI.
terminals strewn with bodies
lying in pools of blood.
The man who organized these
bloody atrocities (and many
more) was Gary Rowe, a paid in-
formant for one of the most
powerful right-wing terrorist
organizations in the world-the
FBI! Keep the FBI off campus!
The role of the bourgeoise
state's secret police in the labor
movement was made clear at the
Communications Workers of
America convention on July 16th
of this year. In front of hundreds
of stunned delegates, U.S. Secret
Service agents grabbed union of-
ficial Jane Margolis, handcuffed
her and dragged her protesting
off the convention floor shortly
before President Carter was
scheduled to speak. Out of sight
of the convention dedegated
federal agents manhandled Jane,
threatening to hold her incom-
municado for days. While she
was being subjected to in-
terrogation and denied access to
a lawyer, the Detroit police told
Margolis that she was under
arrest on unspecified charges.
Jane Margolis's "'crime" was her
membership in the Militant Ac-
tion Caucus, a class-struggle op-
position within the Com-.
munications Workers of
America, but in Jimmy Carter's
America, land of "human-
rights", his personal goons sim-
ply marched into the union con-
vention and dragged her into an
adjoining room where they
denied her any pretense of
democratic rights.
The real criminals at hand are
these hired thugs who willingly
brutalize those fighting for social
change in the service of
capitalist rule.
In 1956, the FBI began tits now
infamous COINTELPRO ("coun-
ter-intelligence program")
against the left. Recent ex-
posures have detailed the dirty
and sometimes murderous
"tricks" of FBI agents in the left,
black and labor movements.
This trial of discovery has led
directly to the government's net-
work of agents, finks, and
provocateurs (all labeled "in-
formants" in the FBI's more
public discourse). And it is these
"informants" which the FBI
wants to recruit at Wayne State
University.
The scheduled FBI 'recruit-
ment drive at WSU must be stop-
TheL
Room 124 of East Quad at U of M.
Following the film there will be a
discussion and more information
.on our campaign to keep FBI
agents off the Wayne State cam-
pus.
-Spartacus Youth League
October 20
To the Daily:
The Daily's editorial of October
10, "UAW Contract Talks: More
Trouble for Chrysler", was a
lengthy and rather silly
assessment of the issues in-
volved. After numerous
paragraphs, the article arrives at
the natural conclusion: "The
UAW leadership must exercise
caution, and must not lose sight
of the monumental issues they
are being asked. . . to decide".
For even the casual reader of
Solidarity, the UAW's
publication, it is obvious that the
UAW leadership is fully
cognizant of their position.
Perhaps the Daily will seriously
consider subscribing (it only
costs a dollar a year) to
Solidarity, for the bulk of the
editorial contained a number of
assumptions and statements
which reflect a gross ignorance of
the labor movement in general
and the UAW in particular.
To begin, the editorial men-
tions the "big money settlemen-
ts" negotiated by the UAW. While
it is certainly true that the UAW
is one of the most powerful labor
unions in the US, the phrase
distort the reality of rank-and-file
members. My father, who has
worked in a UAW shop (local 160)
for almost thirty years, was laid-
off four times in the first six
years of the 1970's. Beyond this,
the spectre of plant closings (for
example, Dodge Main) threatens
working people with downright
disaster.
In the next sentence, the
editorial mentions that "a strike
(was) never even seriously con-
sidered". How this statement
was arrived at is a matter of con-
jecture, but let me assure you
that strikes and their possibility
are a very serious concern for
UAW members and their
leadership. Long before the GM
settlement was reached, picket
signs were ready, and strike
organization was being planned.
As someone who has lived
through several strikes and has
seen family savings, insurance
4% 1
)aui
some of the burden for company;
mis-management transcends an
analysis of the burden which
Chrysler workers already
assume. According to the assum-
ptions of the editorial, the UAW
must, for the good of the country,
balance the needs of its' mem-
bers with the economic situation
fo Chrysler. But did Chrysler
discuss the closings of the Dodge
Main with the UAW? No, it did
not. Does the company provide
its workers with even a week's
notice of a lay-off? No it does not.
Social responsibility then, is
something that rightfully belongs
at Chrysler long in advance of
UAW involvement.
Finally, the most outrageous
assertion of the editorial: "So for
one of the first times in its history
as a labor movement, the UAW
is in a. position of having to put
something other than the in,-
terests of its membership at the
top of its list of priorities" in-
dicates a genuine lack of
knowledge of the UAW. The UAW
has a long history of social in-
volvement and activism, of which
it is proud. For example, black
and white members and leaders
of several Detroit labor unions,
including the UAW, helped
organize a mass rally outside
Cobo Hall in 1963 to hear Dr.
Martin Luther King speak on the
struggles of the civil rights
movement. The UAW was alsq
active in the anti-war protests of
the 1960's and 1970's. More recen
tly, UAW President Doug Fraser
has spoken out on a wide range of
issues which impact upon ouri
society. Mr. Fraser has criticize4
President Carter on a number of
issues, including health care plan
and energy legislation. On
Tuesday, July 24 of this year, Mr.
Fraser was quoted in the Detroit
Free Press: "The UAW will seek
to prevent investment of its Big 1
pension funds in companies
which display anti-union
behavior (not necessarily auto*
related companies), and would
also seek to prevent investments
in companies supporting racia
discrimination in South Africa",
Various issues of Solidarity have
also supported such issues as: the
FLOC boycott, the Nestles
boycott, the J. P. Stevens
boycott, the SALT II treaty, an4
greater public control of
television. Of course, all these
issues relate in some way to UAW
i
I