... "Now I didn't say publish. I said scholarly work."
.. "The crucial problem is-the loss of the innovative populati
little bit of glancing over their shoulders
occasionally to see if anybody was listen-
ing, but most of the time it was a valid
intellectual experience they were having.
Well, you might say, I would like to
have everybody to be so involved, but
would-you? Would it be realistic to ex-
pect it on every subject, all the time? I
don't know how high a level of intellect-
ual intensity is really possible. We know
something about limits of human skill,
and I don't know what the limits of in-
tellectual excitement are. We don't have
any clear feel for this.
Q-You talk about levels of aspiration.
It seems the only thing we really incul-
cate into Freshmen, the only thing any-
one pushes him on, is to get those grades.
This is the only thing that can be pinned
down as tangible. Nobody ever says, are
you really doing things in this course?
The teacher gives you your grades.
A-I'm sure there are all gradations
of this. Some faculty members who
take a very superficial and mechanical
view of their teaching actually play right
into this motivation. They orient their
teaching toward the examinations and
their examinations cover what they have
There are on the other. hand, and
these are in the majority people who
work valiantly and long and hard against
that system and they communicate it in
all sorts of ways. Sometimes directly by
saying, this is not something that is go-
ing to be covered.
But let's be honest with ourselves. We
all know also that in this day and age,
two things happen: one is that if the
teacher says, I am not going to cover
this in the exam, but I would very much
like to have you read it, because I want
to talk about it two days from now,
many students do not accept that mar-
velous invitation to deviate from the
mechanical learning process. They don't
Or if the teacher says, I'm just not go-
ing to have these kids gear their behav-
ior to what the examination is going to
be, and so he says when the class begins:
There is going to be an examination on
November 1st. About October 15th, the
question comes, what is that exam go-
ing to cover. The instructor says, "what
we've been discussing," and the anxiety
level hits the ceiling. The teacher says,
"Well, look, I'm just trying to introduce
you to the nature of an academic life."
So it is a complex social problem. It
is by no means easy to solve, but I think
it is really being worked on.
Q-What about teaching fellows?
A--First of all I'm very strong for the
teaching fellow concept. I think some of
the best teaching in the University can be
done by these people, if they are care-
fully chosen and well supervised, and by
well supervised I don't mean in a de-
tailed way, but helped in the problems of
instruction. I think some very exciting
and good teaching can be done by these
It is also a socially useful thing for a
university to do, because this is the way
in which college teachers get trained and
we need them. I'm not apologetic about
I think that the Center for Research
on Learning and Teaching has been mov-
ing in this direction-being concerned
with the teaching fellow. Dean Haber
and Dean Hayes have been working on
some of the plans and have tried to
increase the amount of training of teach-
ing fellows before the semester begins.
The University will do more of this I am
sure as time goes on and resources permit.
Q-You mentioned work supervision.
Do you consider supervision where all
the teaching fellows are handed a syl-
labus, and told, you've got to follow this,
and here are the books you've got to
have your class read, and so on, as any
A-I think some of the best supervis-
ion in the sense that I mean it-and that
means intelligent introduction of these
people into the skills and problems of
teaching-is done by Fusfeld in econom-
ics, and the psychology department over
the years, now with Dick Mann.
These are people who work very cre-
atively with these teaching fellows. I
don't know how much he is involved now,
but Phil'Jones in mathematics had some
very helpful and useful influence _on
young teaching fellows in mathematics.
These are highlights, and I -may be
doing a disservice by failing to mention
some other people, but I haven't been
that close to it lately.
Q-How can you encourage teaching
fellows to develop? They sort of, have
the feeling that they are slave labor.
How do you inspire them to?
-even the slave labor concept is a little
bit tricky. How do you decide when a
person is a slave? When he hasn't got
any freedom? When he doesn't get paid
enough or what? Actually in terms -of-
dollars per hour, I'll bet that a teaching.
fellow is not doing too badly.
There may have to be some adjust-
ment there in the pay schedule, and
there has been. If there is a serious pay
problem or, an overwork problem, or a
prestige problem, the University does
things about it. The University is very
serious about teaching fellows. Every fall
P r e s i d e n t Hatcher and I went to
talk with the new teaching fellows in the
literary college. The purpose of this was
to communicate a very genuine appreci-
ation for what they were doing and their
significance in the lives of these people.
Q-Looking at what I would call the
scholarship-research problem, the pres-
sures on the faculty to produce, the fac-
ulty seem to become publishers rather
than scholars. Don't you think this sort
of thing is misdirected?
A--Sure, it can very well get out of
hand, and it has with certain people in
certain departments, but I think the slo-
gan is much more of a fiction. 'There are
very few first rate places that would ever
fire a man because he didn't publish.
Most departments that I know about
that are pretty good are sensitive to the
fact that some one is a good teacher,
and maybe not such a good red hot re-
searcher. They move him along. The
college certainly encourages that kind of
thing, and so does the central administra-
Sometime a department inhibits that
kind of recommendation, but I don't be-
lieve that the publish or perish philos-
ophy characterizes very many places.
I would like to add one other thing.
Administrators spend a good deal of time
Q--You have emphasized that-the locus
of power -in the University must always
remain with the faculty and: does, and
still does here. How would you doeument
that, and why do you think it is neces-
sary or desirable?
A-Hutchins at one time-talking
about this problem of educational ad-
ministration-said.that it was one thing
to get things done, and another to make
them last. He said that maybe a decade
after he left Chicago. He had good rea-
son to reflect on that, because little of
what he .stood for, had done there, was
still in existence. Basically and funda-
mentally the educational ideas are im-
plemented by faculty members, and un-
less they are really wholeheartedly in
favor of the decisions about how things
are going to be done, and how resources
are going to be employed, it doesn't make
any difference where the authority is.
This is where the effective power is, and
that is the end of that. So just from a
standpoint of praticality that's true.
In every good university academic re-
sponsibility is delegated to the faculty,
and the reason for it -is that this is a.
delegation to the people who are expert.
This is the faculty's area of expertise.
So to get high quality decisions it has
got to be there. No dean is going to tell
the internal medicine professor how he
So from the standpoint of quality and
acceptability that is where the responsi-
bility must be. Now I think that there is
no question that recommendations of
new programs, recommendations about
merit increases in promotions are made
by faculty groups.
Q-Aren't the faculty somewhat abdi-
cating the responsibilities that go with
the sorts of power that they are supposed
to have? They don't want to be bother-
ed with curriculum or the university, or
the Dean-as long as they have their
money, students, and research?
A-You're just talking about the qual-
ity with which our goals are implemented.
"Hutchins at one time--talking about this prob-
lem of educational administration-said that it was
one thing to get things done, and another to nake
them last. He said that maybe a decade after he left
Chicago. He had good reason to reflect on that,.
because little of what he stood for, had done there,
was still in existence.
"Basically and fundamentally the educational
ideas are implemented by faculty members, and
unless they are really wholeheartedly in favor of the
decisions about how things are going to be done, and
how resources are going to be employed, it doesn't
mnake any difference where the authority is. This is
where the effective power is, and that is the end
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had a good department of X, and it is a
clinker now, did you know that?" I say,
tell me more.
Sometimes it confirms an impression
you have, and sometimes it doesn't but
there is a data collection stage which
may or may not be quite formal.
Then there is a time when one must
assess how readily that department is
to engage in some self-examination, or to
hear something about itself. Just as with
human problems there are degrees of
neurosis with departments. - The sicker
they are, the less ready they are to ac-
cept the fact that they are sick. Some-
times this can be tough. There is some-
thing very discouraging about a sick de-
partment that doesn't know it.
After a period of data collection and
assessing readiness, the administration
seeks an opportunity to move in. By this
time, one knows what kind of questions
to ask of the dean or the chairman. Per-
haps one suggests an outside committee
or an .outside consultant.
Q-What do you feel the role of the
faculty should be in this institution or
generally in selecting a new president?
A-There ought to be a faculty com-
mittee, there typically is, to whom the
regents turn for advice and counsel. I
think that is proper.
It ought to be an instrument of the
regents. The regents ought to set it up
so there is no question as to what their
Q--What about the concept of the in-
stitutional leader who works to affect
the world around him, taking stands on
world issues? Should the University take
moral stands and have a moral commit-
A-A University officer speaks as an
educator all the time. I don't really know
how to make the distinction. You can
say, I think that it is very important for
there to be well-led groups that have as
their concern the solution of social prob-
They ought to well-led, and students
ought to be encouraged to join them.
That is -what I think Cutler said about
Certainly a clear deviation from that
is for him to say, I believe that things are
seriously wrong at Selma, Alabama, and
Governor Wallace ought to do something.
With respect to the professors and the
teach-in, we have to insist that we are
creating a condition here where people
first of all can operate freely as citizens,
and secondly we're operating freely as a
forum. What is said at the forums that
we -authorize has nothing to do with us.
Q-What sorts of influence, such as
from the Legislature, the State Board,
the comptroller's office, or the auditor
do you consider legitimate for the Uni-
A-I don't think it is fair to lump all
these together. There are very different
problems here. The State Board has
been given constitutionally-established
authority for coordination and planning,
and just how they are going to imple-
ment that is a very tricky business, be-
cause there are all these autonomous
institutions, and certainly there is some
invasion of that autonomony by that
statute. Whether the contradiction is
written out or not, there is a contradic-
tion between the autonomy of this
board and this power given to the State
That is going to be a tough business
figuring out just exactly how you can
preserve the ability of an institution to
plan; work out its own destiny, and the
way you control it.
I don't know what the solution to that
is. It is kind of interesting to me that
the problem here at Michigan and in
Michigan is to see how much of the clear-
ly historically established autonomy in an
institution is going to be transferred to a
central board. In California, they are
looking the other way.
Much of this power clearly delegated
to the central board is now going to be
These things must be worked out with
delicacy, and I think that this State
Board ought to look very carefully at
the power that they. are trying to get,
and examine that in relationship -to the
power that the Board of Regents at Cali-
fornia is now willing to delegate to the
campuses. There is no point trying to
acquire power that experience would in-
urbanites who want a superfluity ofroom,.
or security from violence, or specialized
styles of life."
MOST persons would admit, though, the
difficulty of making Detroit even half
as desirable as San Francisco or.Boston
as a place to live. The city is dominated
first of all by the structure of its major
industry. There is a large working class,
well-paid but with no great- social or
cultural aspirations. There is a quite well-
off professional-managerial class, but ef-
ficiency, not creativity, is encouraged,
even demanded among General Motors
factory and office managers.
This will be a hard pattern to break
through. Influence from' Ann Arbor could
do it, but the University now abets the
system more than it works against it.
However, given a sufficient infusion of
professorial talent from around the coun-
try, a critical mass might soon be reached
where many of the graduates, particular-
ly the New York and Chicago Jewish stu-
dents, will decide to stay in -the area
rather than flee back to their cities.
And, in the face of all this, urban
areas are having severe problems of or-
ganization and implementation in tack-
ling their mounting ills. Meier states,
"The metropolitan area still presents
problems and precedents that are not in-
surmountable, but threaten to stifle ini-
tiative and delay action."
Those most affected by youth unem-
ployment, for instance, are disenfran-
chised and unorganized, and, while "the
authority to undertake" programs "al-
ready exists," it is split up between gov-
ernmental units, many of them at differ-
But, as with automobile production ef-
ficiency, when one encounters bottlenecks
in organization, the newest technologies
can be brought to bear, "granting that
each incorporated community retains its
WITH the United Nations as a proto-
type, Meier proposes ametropolitan
assembly, composed of 31-34 of those al-
ready representing the area on a national
level (such as U.S. Senators and Repre-
sentatives), 65-70 drawn similarly from
state and province level representatives,
14-16 at a county level and 30-40 at a
The assembly would utilize a regional
planning commission, a secretariat for
preparing comprehensive documents for
consideration, an arbitration tribunal,
special metropolitan agencies and a met-
ropolitan data bank.
"Most of the inventorying and account-
ing" for the data bank "will have been
computerized by the 1970's," Meier says.
Using the information provided by the
bank at low cost, "a wider range of ur-
ban services can be provided which yield
greater satisfaction and result in fewer
But all this planning, even if well-im-
plemented, has its limits. "Regional plan-
ning, backed up with political and admin-
istrative advances, will not provide solu-
tions to the really grave problems affect-
ing American metropolitan areas," Meier
BARGAINING and balancing have se-
vere limitations in social problem-
solving, because some issues get stalled on
matters of principle." However, within a
thoroughly political environment, where
bargaining is not "inconvenient," Meier
asserts that "Much more elaborate and
thorough plans can be realized."
Some schools of philosophy claim it is
better, when dealing with huge, multi-
variate problems, to circle them for a
while, as one would a mountain, ap-
proaching them only cautiously and ten-
tatively, than to charge straight at them.
In the same way planners often have to
approach such huge problems as urban
development from every possible angle
before "getting down to business."
This enables the planner to be familiar
wiith every perspective, to take tentative
pokes at various aspects of the larger
problem and see what happens without
becoming committed to a particular ap-
Systems analysis, as well as a few
other types of analysis, have been used
to analyse the present in Michigan, tak-
ing it apart and putting it back together,
again. Forecasting, building on this, looks
into the future, pinpointing the trends,
the problems, the clashes, the growth
and the decay'
SUNDAY, DECEMBER 5, 1965
IN CIRCLING AROUND the Michigan
mountain there are still more aspects
of -the problem to be analysed and ap-
proaches to be tried. There are many
parts that will make up the total eco-
nomic system of Michigan in 1975, and
they must be working together. They
must also fit well into the structure of
the national economy, which Sonenblum
examines in "Michigan in the 1970's."
Sonenblum asserts that economic pro-
jections into the future can be fairly
accurate. "The main reason why they
go 'wrong'," he says, has been the fore-
caster's inability to take into proper
account new laws and public policies
and the adaptations the private sector
of the economy makes to these.
In looking ahead, Sonenblum examines
five so-called "rigidities" in United
States society which might cause eco-
nomic trouble between now and 1975.
First, he °sees no cause to worry over
ruiaway automation causing mass un-
employment. "Productivity is not likely
to increase so much more rapidly than
in the past that it will create a basic
conflict," he says, assuming "that job
training programs will increase."
Differing with Meier, Sonenblum sees
"neither consumer satiety nor income
distribution effects" as "significantly re-
straining economic growth." This view
is supported by a recent publication of
the National Planning Association, "The
Dollar Cost of our National Goals," by
Leonard A. Lecht.
ECHT ATTACKS the "Legend of Eco-
nomic Omnipotence" in the U.S. "The
'economy of abundance' in which all
desired objectives become possible is un-
likely to figure as the economic environ-
ment in which our goals will be imple-
mented over the next decade." All of our
commonly held goals (such as the elim-
ination of poverty, adequate medical serv-
ices, rebuilding our cities) cannot be
eliminated in the next 20 years even
with vigorous economic growth.
Meier argues, however, that even a
tax-cut stimulated economy benefits last
the low seniority youth or immigrants.
Only nontraditional measures can cor-
rect this, he says.
In projecting the distribution of na-
tional output in the future, Sonenblum
finds that each sector of the economy
will share alike in the growth. There
will be no great shift from private to
public spending as John Galbraith, for
instance, has called for. Neither will
domestic investment slow down relative
to international investment nor the con-
sumer become satiated with cars, homes,
and other goods.
'THE RELATIVELY slight projected
change from recent patterns is con-
sistent with developments in the past
half century," he says.
push has been research, which is expected
to remake the state by making Ann Arbor
the "Research Center of the Midwest,"
and be a magnet for exciting new indus-
tries, bringing new jobs for the well-
educated thousands the University turns
out every year.
Frank Bacon provides some background
data for analysing this proposition in
'Research Emphasis in Michigan Univer-
sities," in which he details the composi-
tion of research and industry in the state
and compares them with similar indexes
for the U.S. and with national growth
Naturally, the transportation equip-
ment industry predominates, accounting
for "38.4 per cent of the state's total
value added by manufacture" but only
11.7 per cent nationally. The situation is
similar with respect to the machinery and
primary metals industries.
PROBLEMS ARISE because most of the
state's main industries are experienc-
ing slower-than-average growth compar-
ed to the nation as a whole. Three in-
dustries, however, -are exhibiting faster-
persuading legislators and comptrollers
and governors that they are not to look
at the teaching load of our faculty and
assume that is all the state is getting.
They are getting paid for making contri-
butions to knowledge. This means where
they would teach 15 hours somewhere
else, they are only teaching 7 here. I
think it is perfectly moral and proper
with this kind of a teaching load that
the man show evidences of scholarly
work. I mean that is part of the under-
standing he has with the University.
That is part of his agreement, the state's
understanding of what the University of
Michigan is spending its money for.
Now, I didn't say publish. I said scho-
larly work. One of the proper forms of
scholarly work is publication when you
set up experiments that are intended to
contribute to knowledge.
On the other hand, there are certain
kinds of scholarly work that don't have
to terminate with a publication at all-
not even to demonstrate that it occurs.
If you're a professor of Shakespeare and
don't make any contribution to Shake-
speare criticism, but are constantly on
top of what is happening, and examining
it, and evaluating it, and being reflective
about it, this is scholarly work.
Q--Are you optimistic we will continue
or expand the place the teachers have in
A--I guess I don't know. There are
forces that go counter to this all the
time of course, but I think that there is
an increased sensitivity to the need for
better teaching. I'm not sure that it is
intense enough so that I would predict
that there is going to be a radical shift
in effort yet.
I £~~-tb aT' E .T iovoLIT AN AtEAa.If0 lilji MAjOI
PIaSf.Tt IscOIPOtAT. Afl.AS Er aP
IN 1970 the Detroit urban area will extend out past J
according to planning forecasts made by Richard
Human Resource Development in the Detroit Area."
It happens very rarely, but it does hap-
pen that because the faculty isn't taking
it seriously, isn't working at it, isn't do-
ing anything about it, that some admin-
istrative officer moves into that vacuum.
Q-There is no mass movement yet?
A-No. The interesting thing, one of
the things that I think is terribly im-
portant to remember as you try to under-
stand a university, the interesting thing
is that the best departments typically
are good all over: In research, in under-
graduate teaching, there is a good deal of
feedback between teaching and research.
Their recruiting processes are good, and
their faculty government is good.
It seems to me that all of these things
hang together. The point to remember
is that a department doesn't show re-
search elegance by neglect of'these other
things. There is a kind of esprit and ac-
ceptance of high standards, and the
standards are pervasive, and everybody is
working on all fronts. I think that this
is true about our best departments.
Q-You as an administrator are in
touch with and responsible for the qual-
ity ,of the institution. Say a department
or a school or an institute has gone
wrong, and is doing a lousy job. What
can you do about it? What are the steps
that you can take, or do you have to sit,
there and keep your mouth shut?
A-First of all you have to be sure
that you are right. _ That takes a little
time, and may actually be quite difficult
to determine. Someone may come in and
say the department is not a good one.
Perhaps at some conference somewhere
an outsider says, "your university once
What is happening in Michigan now is not
economic development but full exploitation of pres-
ent levels of development, which puts the state that
much farther behind in moving on to the new levels
that will be needed to keep up with national
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list as a loc
In education he acknowledges the ade-
quacy of the present farm and labor
force, seeing "no need to 'train' more
laborers and -farmers than we have cur-
rently. Instead he sees a need for rough-
ly two million persons trained in each
of the following: sales personnel, crafts-
men-foremen and operatives.
In addition, four million service work-
ers will be needed and "the same number
in the manager-proprietor groups," plus
"seven million more persons trained in
each of the professional-technical and
This is a massive education job, and
one of the problems in dealing with it is
a biased distribution of occupations with
respect to nonwhites. "Since the mid-
1950's,'' Sonenblum points out, "the edu-
cational attainment of nonwhites, par-
ticularly at the high school level, has not
improved in relation to that for whites."
HE CALLS FOR reductions in job dis-
crimination through education and
training programs and "vigorous public
policy," though he makes no specific
'For a long time one of the University's
big selling points in its public relations
than-national growth-electrical machin-
ery, instruments and plastics.
In research, Bacon finds state patterns
of -expenditure much closer to national
ones, "with greater stress on social and
psychological sciences and agricultural
sciences." These emphases are consider-
ably different from those of the state's
However, he sees "positive potential"
in the "national character of university
research in Michigan" because of the
"state's need for more diversified indus-
trial growth." These new emphases "can
provide the new technologies which can
further vitalize the state's already strong
machinery and metalworking industry
Implementation of these "new direc-
tions," can however, have only a limited
positive impact in the Detroit area, ac-
cording to Meier. He designed "hypo-
thetical new facilities for electric power
-generation, equipment, machine tools and
tourism which-would meet competition
and produce enough to meet more than
half the world demand," and found that
"even these world markets are too small,
to sustain the Detroit economy."
THE MICHIGAN DAILY MAGAZINE