PAGEr EiGHAT
THE MICHIGAN DAILY
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1964
i
PLHA+..'1V'IW TiEMIlE NIAJYWDEDYNVMER1,18
QUESTION-ANSWER PERIOD:
Students Quiz Hatcher on Policies at Convocation
Session
, 1I- T!)----4-- ;4 -- .+nnn "imnA as
EDITOR'S NOTE: The following stronger as a university on bothI
is the complete transcript of the the graduate and under-graduate
question and answer period that thgrdaendue-rdae
followed PresidentsHarlan Hatcher's levels for having this kind of ac-t
address to the student body tivity going on here.I
Thursday. The reason for that is extensiveI
QUESTION: You mentioned but the over-riding ones are thatt
that some universities are federal it has enabled us in a period, off
grant universities. Now that the competition to hold and to bringa
federal government is putting as here outstanding scientists, re-
much or more into the University search people and teachers. Sec-s
as the state is, is the University ondly, we have been able to haves
a federal grant university and laboratories and equipment which
what are the implications of this we would not have otherwise. And
in terms of out-of-state students third, it has given a means of em-c
and the University's responsibility ployment to many thousands ofr
to the nation and the world? . our students. Of the some 42001
PRESIDENT HATCHER: The that are employed, a large per-E
federal government is putting centage of those are students who
something like between thirty-six are themselves at work in some
and forty million into the Univer- form of graduate work and many
sity's research programs at the of our PhDs have come out of that.-
present time, and this is one of the Now what the future is to be, I
largest inputs. I believe that it still do not know. Right now there has
holds that excluding the manager- been a great deal of study on the1
jal functions at places like Lin- nationalscene devoted to this witht
coln Laboratories of Massachu- the belief on the part of manyk
setts Institute of Technology and that great universities like thet
Argonne of Chicago and strictly University of Michigan, for ex-
in a campus sense, the University ample, ought not to be encouragedt
is the largest center for this kind to still further volume of research;E
of thing, they should be sort of held ap-t
One other point that is import oximately where they are and
n thstate This began durint it is a responsibility of the federal
ant to stt:Ti4bgndrn
government to aidSecondWorld War when Bush in encouraging
r n new centers of research distinc-
and Carl Compton of MIT and tion - graduate areas in places
James Conant from Harvard, all that heretofore have not had such
outstanding and distinguished faculties. These have many dan-
physical scientists, became , the gers in them too, and I do not
chief advisors to the President of know what will become of it butj
the United States in the war ef- the rate of growth that we havej
fort and it was imperative that the before us will probably tend to
whole research effort in the nation level off rather than continue the
be stepped up first with respect to rapid rise in this curve that weJ
defense and then, as it followed have had heretofore. 2
after the war, to extend into all* *
sorts of other spin-off and fall-out QUESTION: President Hatcher,
type things. And they turned nat- in your address, you alluded to thet
urally first to those universities possibility of the Blue-Ribboni
that already had distinguished Citizen's Committee for Higher
faculties in these various areas Education which I assumed was
that were of concern to the na- going to be some kind of commun-
tional government in this respect. ity or university committee study
The Uhiversity, having built up group which would attempt to an-
over the years its outstanding fac- swer some of the questions which;
ulty, was naturally a center for you have posed in your speeches
this research. And we have con- this evening, and if you would care
tinued it. to, I would be interested in having
There are many criticisms made you elaborate on this a little bit.
of this in general; the chief criti- I think this is one area which we
cism has come not from the Uni- assume we could be especially con-!
versity's program, but from those cerned with and become a little
who are less satisfied than we closer to some of the work in the
have been - namely, the injec- University.
tion of a program of this size, ANSWER: The story of housing
basically geared to research, much is a fascinating one, starting from
of it classified. It is very tenuous- , the day of President Henry B.
ly related to say the least - in Tappan who was modeling the
many cases not related at all - University on German lines. He
for the simple function of the Uni- disbanded the dormitories thata
versity which is teaching and used to be old university halls,
training on various levels. We here and said that we would have no
at the University as I indicated more dorms and that people would
in my more formal statement to live in the town the way they do
you, have accepted these con- at the University of Guttingham
tractual relationships with the which he admired very greatly.
federal government in every in- You are, I think, probably famil-
stance under conditions which iar with the general contours of
carry on training. And I think the East and our experience since
that it is fair to say that on bal- that time, which culminated in
ance we are farther ahead and are the period of the veteran return,
when things were horribly over- you do have a person who is question of out-of-state students per cent which is our usual level. versity, those wno nave gone be-the Regents, it was recogizes a
crowded everywhere and when, for deeply interested in the processes came up and I asked specifically .There is one point of refine- fore you, the professors who have another step in the gradual evo-
the first time the federal govern- of education, who devotes him-. the question of these people who ment in that however, that you charge, have already made up the lution in what some day might
ment moved in to provide the new self to the counseling service and were worrying about the number need to notice and this one both- course list. They have often been prove to be 'a proper and ideal
Housing Act which enabled the conduction of a thoughtful, of out-of-state students that we ers me because I wish we would very thoughtful about this and kind of organization.
Universities to borrow money at imaginative course whose scholar- have here at the U, if they in- get rid of the concept in the first tried to provide courses that will I said overhand over again to
fairly reasonablerates of interest ship finds its fruits, not neces- cluded in what they were saying place, but I guess we can't. This introduce you best to the subject those with whom I conferred on
and float bond issues to be paid sarily in a book, but in the effect the foreign students. And a whole nation is a very mobile one and which they have in mind, it that this well might not be the
back by rentals and it was on this that he has upon his student. new atmosphere came over the it is very difficult to be precise The students' power comes in final word. I know that a good
score that we were able to pay for At the U, all of us who have place and they answered, "Oh, no, about who is and who is not a the reputation they give to these many of you criticize it and per-
such housing that we have built. anything to do with the ad- no. They are the most welcome. resident. We happen to have, classes, the power they have, and haps justly.
Now, the experience here in ministration - president, vice- We aren't talking about the stu- through the state Constitution it is very considerable, to electives, I say that the University's pos-
Ann Arbor has not been terribly president, deans - insist that dents from foreign countries, we and its interpretations, that we to make their choices. Occasion- ture toward it is not one that this
different from that in other com- these are people of the most im- are talking about over-concentra- have inherited-and I have not ally the college moves in on that is the perfected instrument of all
munities, but it has been a little portance to us, and that kind of tions from states that have not been able to do anything about it, and compels you to distribute, but time and no change must take
bit, in that Ann Arbor is 'a small- performance is just as worthy provided universities of their we have no authority over the even in distribution you have ca- place; but I think to change it
er town and we are more nearly of recognition and advancement own." . definition of a student out of pacity to choose. requires some very careful and
a residential university than you as any other. And we would like Now to come back to the next state. And other people having There is a great deal of power thoughtful analysis and wherein
would find somewhere like in Co- to have recommendations come question: we have seen this prob- the same mix that we have, show to be exercised on the part of stu- Its weaknesses lie, what functions
lumbus, Ohio or St. Paul, Minn. on that basis, and we do get a lem coming at us for a long time a much less percentage of out-of- dents by choosing the good need to be performed that are not
Now as we have moved this stu- good many of them. -the day when out of this mar- state and in-state. So it is not courses and good teachers, and being performed, and how it can
dent body from a littfe under Now; I can't resist adding that velous group of students com- just the percentage, but the mix. people know where they are. I better and more representative
13,000 that were here at the swol- those who take another view- ing now from the high schools Furthermore, we have people suspect that through this means way and more efficient way in the
len peak of enrollment just before and many thoughtful people do- out of the nation and out of coming who have lived in other the students change the balance University. I would suggest that
the war broke out, we have moved contend that you can't measure Michigan, you have more and parts of the country and a year of teaching quite markedly more you should make tis an early
steadily up in 1952, to the 29,103 this kind of thing, this is just the more highly qualified students. It ago they came into Michigan, than aiy one force. I think thatm
steailyup n 152,to he 9,13 tis knd f ting ths i jut te ,matter of discussion with Vice-
that we have mentioned and this dilletente's way of occupying the happened this year again. It's They are in-state students, and those conferences with their pro- President (for Student Affairs
has put a severe strain on the place. I have known so many been true for the last three years, they are putting into the Univer- fessors which they neglect, are Richard) Cutler, for example, and
town, but there has been no re- great teachers, myself, who were that I know of, that certain of sity the highest quality of young- very significant here. They don't see what the review shows.
examination; we have gone on in not the ones who published, and what are generally spoken of as sters that there are We are have to be organized, they can be * * *
this previous pattern that has I have' known so many great the prestige, first-choice type uni- going to have to liberalize that a the individual person commenting QUESTION: I lived three years
evolved. people who published and were versities that schools like Har- great deal. There is not a sim- on these. in the dormitory and two years in
I have conferred with many of very poor teachers. There seems vard, Yale and Princeton, and ple matter where you can say that Or if there is something radi- an apartment, and now I have an-
you and have given a great deal to me that any thoughtful cvalu- the University, admissions officers 'X' per cent represents a flaw- cally wrong, as there sometimes other apartment. My question is
of thought to it myself as to ation must say that in an educa- will tell you that they could have less minimum or the absolute is, then group conference could one which concerns the student
what we houh d o.Cmyelyits tional institution, particularly one taken the third class and some- flawless maximum of students. be indicated. who finds himself in the dorm.
not something that tle Univer- that has undergraduates going in- etimes the fourth group, that were You have a little range here of In matters that relate to student Is there a limit to which crowd-
sity unilaterally should rush in- to graduate work, that these rejected, and have put them into wonderful people and the fact life, I think that the University is ing can go and what further pos-
to; the community is so deeply people are vital to us and ought the Yale freshman class, and they that they come from across the considerably organized in its vari- sibility of dialogue within the
involved, they are hospitable and tobe recognized. sn would have had a perfectly ac- border, from Toledo, does not ous areas and if they function at student body is there?
are interested in doing this also.' er*g d ceptable class of highest quality. necessarily mean very much. all properly, there should be a ANSWER: We recognize that
ItwQUESTION: President Hatcher So there is an almost impres- I also mentioned that the dis- constant discussion and a con- the community, like so many
proptly bring toethe ad high lEst on theAdssins oce sionistic selection in schools of tribution differs very widely. You stant flow and in-put of the re- others, is heavily taxed at the
promptly bring together a high last month, the Admissions office this kind. will find in the School of Public sults of those conferences: the present time. All the data I can
level group of people representing said that our out-state student -. L Sho ooiis h fraternities, the In- get before me indicates a t leat
these various levels that do have, population will be 'stabilized at' We are faced with the same Health and in the Law School, sororities, the Canit, the In-t byear of some tighter t-
not such a competitive interest in about 25 per cent or 7,000 stu- problem and question here. If you for example, the two largest per- ter - quad Council, the Studentnnanothery o eriter s
it, but a thoughtful concern dents. I noticed, just last week have this quality of person com- centages of out-of-state students. Government Council. ueation in the University's dorms
about what is the proper relation- in The Daily that the University ing from the high schools and In the Law School, about 52 utilized to their capacity at all And I don't for a minute take
ship, that maybe we can get a had shown some interest in in- heruizI to th a ty at nl Ad Iomont or a minute take
new definition, a new direction, creasing the foreign student popu- emal, natural, legitimate instru- that even at this we happen to be
as to what ought to be done in of the University. Does this mean ments; and these instruments, better than most places. We take
this field of housing. We will also that they will liberalize their and I won't try to detail them our own standards and try to
prepare the charge to the coun- stand they took last month in all, have their place in the total keep them.
cil commission with care. out-of-state student population or University just as every other ele- I do think the more carefully
We will involve, of course, all the let it stay as it is-about 25 per ment of this great diversity does. and orderly advanced notice to
faculty and all the other grour-: cent? They all are constantly putting- our students in planning will en-
in the town. ANSWER: First let me say a in through these means. ' able them to meet this without
QUESTION: President, you word about the international stu- You had a very good example the kind of shock that they were
mentioned that this University is dents. The international students of the usefulness of this, I think, subjected to this past year.
not a place where the philosophy are largely on the graduate level- in connection with Bursley Hall. I take this occasion to commend
is, publish or perish, but I just as you already know. We do have There was a great deal of concern most warmly and heartily, the
wondered, if isn't the policy, ei- a few undergraduates but most whether it was wise at this point charity of accommodating spirits
ther publish or stagnate; that is, of them are graduates and they to build Bursley. Is it the kind of that so many of you exhibited un-
is it not the case that the best are in the, health sciences, pub- organization, are rooms properly der difficult circumstances to ac-
of teachcers won't advance to a lic health or in some concentra- arranged, are these the units you cept the extra roohers.
full professorship level unless they tion, in various fields of engin- would want, is this the relation- r On the other one, as I say, I
do publish? Bering, and they are sent here ship to the dining sesrvice, could r am frankly a little puzzled. We
ANSWER: I think you are ab- for special training. The admis- there be reading rooms in it, how aren a cmnty werew o
solutely right that the publication sion of the foreign students is :.about recreation? not have rent control authority,
is a great help to advancement. largely in the hands of the spe- I must say that I was quite sur- we have notdexesinsd that,
Promotions originate in the de- cific college or unit that does its prised and impressed by the re- careoNer studentsinusaying yh
partment and the judgment with- own admitting at that level, and port which the' Council made of cannot live in this aartmentso
in the department. So, I would it is always an element of sur- iat. I say it to you pablicly, tcat iv i this ento
say right off that what you say prise to us when for example, we this should help them, that they that if a student doeas b decide to
has a lot of truth in it-that to observe fluctuations within this should have put into these con- ndure pay, then that has been
publish is to advance yourself and proportion. siderations their concept and re- B mfar.
I hope that all young scholars I remember some years ago, '-action. Now we have tried this in But my concern and yours is
will proceed to do that. But what we were the largest or the sec- . other places but this is a way of sufficient that I think we can,
I am saying is that the fact that !nd largest in the number of fo Day-James Kesn doing it. isne no wan, e tonda-
4.
r
r
R
Wierd Combination?
the following year, it was 1400,
and to this day I have -no ideaj
or have not been able to findI
out how we got from 11 to 14
or how we will get back to 13,
except that they are admitted
in different areas. One important
factor is that if you take a school
like public health, for example,
it is a national and international
school, and from 75 per cent to
80 per cent of the students of
that particular school are for-
eign students.
I think it was a year ago, maybe'
more, that the World Health Or-1
ganization and other interested
groups, changed somewhat the
concept of training and purpose!
and the result was a modification
of some percentage points of
the foreign students who came
solely on that basis, and had;
nothing to do with the Univer-
sity's own admission policies.
One other thing I'd like to em-
phasize about foreign students is
the coming over this whole pic-
ture of a considerable change as
a result of the rise of so many
new nations and the rise of uni-
versities in the home countries;
and there is a considerable de-
bate or at least a thoughtful in-
quiry going on in many of these
countries, on the question of what
is the relative merit between a
student going to the United
States, or to some other country,
for training and remaining at
the home university; or should
they limit the amount of time
they go there; or should we not
have more interchanging of fac-
ulties to those places. This is un-
resolved, but you are going to
hear a lot about that within the
next few years, I am sure, as
the whole Agency for Interna-
national Development program
and the Developing Nations Pro-
gram continues to mature.
And this may very well affect
the foreign students. We have
felt most hospitable to them; I
have always been a little uneasy,
because, at least I have not feltI
that we here have done at the
University, with all our sense
of hospitality, and our out-going-I
ness, all we ought to do or could1
do to have the foreign students
in our midst, profit more, under-
stand us or we understand them
Inv the matter of the rules and
PLAtYShELD OVER regulations of the University,
as I said to you earlier, we started
,, way back when the doors were
Ronald Bishop as Pierre in Piscator's "War and Peace views opened and we have reflected
the crucial battle between the French- and Russians through the most of the changes as the so-
help of representative figures. "War and Peace," as well as ciety has moves, but we are never
Brendan Behan's "The Hostage," will each be held over for an well in advance. We are always
extra performance. The APA will perform "War and Peace" behind. I think some of these are
Nov. 27 at 8 p.m. in Lydia Mendelssohn Theatre while "The highly important, some of them
Hostage" will play the following evening at the same time. should be looked at.
This is the function of the stu-
dents, working through the Office
throw them together into a uni- per cent of thte lawyers are out- of Student Affairs, just as the
versity that is at its base, at least, of-state. And incidentally, the deans and faculty would work
state-supported, you are faced largest number of those come through the vice president for
with the most difficult question from Harvard, Dartmouth, Co- ' academic affairs, or those who
on what grounds do you deny lumbia. Another fact, dealing have business problems would
this student from Grand Rapids with the Indiana Legislature: work the other way.
or Midland, the right to come They became interested in this! This is the kind of organiza-
to the University and say that and became very tough on Pur- tion it is; if it breaks down at any
you can't come-but to a person due. They found after making; a point, then I think that we ought
of no measurable superiority from study of it that the heavy per- to know about it, because the flow
another area, that you may centage of them were accounted ought to come in.
come. In the field of medicine, in for as graduate teaching fellows; However, we must also note
most states, this has for a long so Purdue quite legally declared that in this kind of setting you
time been a sharp and difficult that anyone who was in a teach- have the problem of the delicate
situation except for states with ing position and had a monetary balance between the student as a
regional compacts and the U, out- relationship with the university, novice in training and yet feed-
state students are not admitted was for the purpose of register- ing back to the University in any
to the Medical School. We save ing, from the state of Indiana. of its eltments the results in him,
about 205 of our places. Minne- So, just over night, without the receiver, of what -is going on.
sota has always saved quite a few changing the mix, you move the This in-put is very important
places for its neighboring states percentages from here to here. to the curriculum committees of
like the Dakotas, for example, I do not think you should get the different colleges. This is ly-
who have no medicine school. In overly concerned with it yet; if ing very close to what I think is
the South, they have made these we drop to one per cent or 18 per the base, to the very exciting re-
compacts, so that the states that I cent and begin to crowd out the view going on of the whole cur-
don't have med schools will pay undergraduates, then we would riculum in the school of medicine,
the way of the students. all be concerned. But I do not the relation of the curriculum in
These are complicating factors, think we will let that happen. the literary college to medicine.
but it comes back. to this basic *for whose who are going on; I
thing, we feel quite strongly here QUESTION: You mentioned know a great many do. It is this
at the University that this is not many problems depressing to you variety of ways that I see that it
only a national unuiversity but it and the student body at the pres- can be done.
is cosmopolitan (one) and has ent time. To produce the kind of * * *
been almost since the day of its creative conflict that develops in- QUESTION: In answering the
inception, and we have no ex- to moments of clear wisdom, it is last question, you mentioned the
pectation of having it otherwise. necessary for the undergraduate fact that the Student Govern-
I feel, however, the great rich- body to make itself heard on this ment Council is a national, effec-
ness of young people making ap- point. Would you please clarify tive way of voicing the student
plications, will require us to have three questions? -How impor- opinion. You also mentioned
the same proportions of admis- tant do you and the administra- that the capacity of this body
sions that we have at, the present tion feel the undergraduate voice has not been used to full.
time. They may fluctuate from is in the areas you have men- Some people who have worked
time to time, but I don't think tioned? -How can the under- with the SGC, and perhaps the
about it, both' in and out of the
University. And it is to"see if we
can't get some movement and
some thoughtful and helpful ap-
proach to this that I have sug-
gested taking the steps for an im-
mediate council and study on it,
so that it doesn't fall without dis-
cussion or we accept what we now
have as the last word in it.
* * *
QUESTION: Last year there
was some discussion of the tri-
mester and the pressure it puts on
students. I was wondering what
kind of studies were made about
the effect of the pressures of the
tri-mester on the quality of work,
particularly on term papers and
performance on exams.
ANSWER: I don't know the
answer to that question. Last year
I believe The Daily took the re-
sponsibility for the conduction of
an extensive inquiry on this or
related subjects.
I don't know what is to be done.
Do you have a suggestion? I would
be interested to know.
The time is technically and
theoretically sufficient and in
some respects even more logically
more efficient than available, be-
cause it doesn't extend through
your Christmas holidays and give
you a trauma that might prevent
you from opening your Christmas
packages, thinking t h a t you
should be studying the assign-
ments that were given to you.
I don't think there is any way
whatever of off-setting the infi-
nite capacity, even of good stu-
dents, to put off doing things till
tomorrow, despite the fact that I
urged all of you when you came
here as freshmen never to let a
week go 'by without being up to
date, so that when you go to the
Illinois game Saturday, you will
have everything behind you.
QUESTION: You mentioned in
one of your introductory remarks,
that one of the things the Uni-
versity is striving for is intimate
connection of student groups. In
they fluctuate in any sense that
will damage the concept or meas-
urably reduce the quality of the
student body.
In saying this, I must also indi-
cate that we will have to have a
careful analysis and position pa-f
per, one of these days, about out-
of-state students because it is not
graduate broaden his rather un-
dergraduate perspective to make
his opinion be more seriously
taken? -What would be the
most effective means to make the
undergraduate voice heard?
ANSWER: This is a very ex-
cellent question. Let me see if I
can make some helpful comments
student population as a whole, view of the North Campus center
feel that this capacity can never that is being built, what does the
be reached. They feel it can University propose to do to keep
never be reached because of the it from becoming an isolated unit?
structure within which the SGC ANSWER: What I was trying
is set. Definitely the many activ- to suggest was that in a com-
ities that have been going on on munity that has reached the size
campus seems to prove this. Some that we have, we have to consider,
people have tried to abolish the not so much trying to make it a
DmnA -nk-r a- mil,-,4+kgnczeo in