Spirituality
Denying The Deniers from page B5
inventions. We didn't prove what hap-
pened; we proved that what they say hap-
pened did not happen.
• What's the difference?
LIPSTADT: There's a difference. I wasn't
proving how many people were murdered
at Auschwitz. But when they say only
68,000 people were killed — it didn't hap-
pen. We weren't proving how many people
were killed — we were showing that their
contentions are based on lies, distortions
and inventions and there's nothing to what
they say.
• Is that how you advise people to
deal with Holocaust deniers?
LIPSTADT: The first way is to see if the
facts prove the case — but you might have
to be more of a specialist to do this: If they
say, "At this meeting, Hitler said X, Y and
Z," you can go and check if they changed
the date or a fact — and suddenly their
point is not a point.
The second way is by citing the facts: If
they say, "How do we know there were gas
chambers?" you can say, "Let me show you
the German plans for gas chambers."
The third way is deductive reasoning
or logic. Deniers will say that the very
fact that there are so many survivors
proves that the Holocaust never happened,
because the Germans were so powerful
and so efficient that if they wanted to kill
the Jews, they would have killed the Jews.
How do you counter that?
[You say], "The Germans wanted to win
the war, the Germans wanted to defeat
Moscow',' but they didn't — this claim that
the Germans were so all-powerful, we know
this is not true; it makes no sense. But I
don't bother to answer deniers; just the
people who might be influenced by them.
• How has Holocaust denial changed
since your trial and book?
LIPSTADT: I see the evolution of
Holocaust denial — there is what I call
"soft-core denial." Hard-core denial
is David Irving or Bishop [Richard]
Williamson. Soft-core is more slippery. It's
"Why do we have to hear so much about
the Holocaust?" or saying "the genocide of
the Palestinians."
Soft-core denial is not denying the
facts, but either inverting it so the victims
become the perpetrators — "Why did the
Germans hate the Jews? Because they Jews
were rich and conniving" — as if to say
they deserved it. It's justifying it.
Soft-core denial is also making a false
comparison, and that dilutes what the
Holocaust was. It's a much more slippery
kind of manifestation, but it's very much
there.
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"The Holocaust was state-sponsored. It came
from Berlin and Berlin worked to make sure that
every Jew on which it could lay its hands would be
killed. In no way can you compare what's going on
in the Middle East to that."
-Deborah Lipstadt
• How do you fight it?
LIPSTADT: It's much harder. You have
to go back and zero in on what it is — you
can say, "Look, you might disagree with
Israel's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians or
that they should not have gone into Gaza,
but to call this a genocide is to deny what
a genocide is." ...
When you begin to use the Nazi term
and you begin to compare Israeli soldiers
— who are not angels and sometimes
do awful things for which they should be
criticized and punished — that's different
than genocide.
The Holocaust was state-sponsored. It
came from Berlin and Berlin worked to
make sure that every Jew on which it could
lay its hands would be killed. In no way can
you compare what's going on in the Middle
East to that. Even if you have the extreme
belief that there should be no state of Israel,
to make the argument that Israel is com-
mitting a genocide is a complete fabrication
and a worm of soft-core denial.
• Is Holocaust denial on the rise?
LIPSTADT: Holocaust denial is rising.
I'm not going to yell "The sky is falling." It
is increasing. In part because of the rise of
anti-Semitism and anti-Israel [feelings],
like you've seen "Sharon = Nazi," "Bush =
Nazi." ... Accusing Jews of atrocities is a
very convenient way of engaging in anti-
Semitism. It becomes a vehicle for anti-
Semitism.
• Is anti-Semitism rising, too?
LIPSTADT: I just gave a seminar to the
executive staff of the Holocaust Museum
[in Washington, D.C.] on this subject. In
the last few years, since Durban [the 2001
U.N. conference against racism], it has
escalated, although it began long before
that. There is a level of attacks that hasn't
been seen before.
I am more concerned now than I have
been in a long time, but I am not yelling
"gevalt" or yelling "head for the barri-
cades" or "they sky is falling."
• How has the Internet changed the
conversation about the Holocaust?
LIPSTADT: What the Internet has done
is put a lot of unfiltered information out
there, and by so doing, it makes it harder
for people to differentiate what is legiti-
mate information and what is not; what is
fact and what is fiction. The Internet is a
wonderful thing — it allows us to spread
information in a way we never did before.
But it puts out a lot of lies and it's easy
access for people.
Someone wrote to me that his son
Googled "Jews, Soap and the Holocaust"
and the first four sites were Holocaust
denial sites. This is a myth. Jews were
not made into soap. It never happened
— there might have been experiments.
Deniers say, "This is another lie that Jews
made up." That's why I'm such a stickler
and I get so upset and worried when you
have people making up Holocaust mem-
oirs like Angel at the Fence. It's fodder for
the deniers.
The deniers then say, "Here's another
example of a Jew being a denier. How can
you believe Night [by Elie Wiesel] or The
Diary of Anne Frank — it's all lies."
• Do Jews of younger generations
view the Holocaust differently from
older generations?
LIPSTADT: We grew up knowing sur-
vivors. We took it for granted. But they're
getting older and they may have passed
away. Those who were in the camps are
few and far between. When I first started
teaching my course on the Holocaust, I
could choose between the survivors. Now
it's getting harder and harder.
• Does the younger generation relate
to the Holocaust differently?
DL: When I hear someone say, "I stud-
ied the Holocaust in the fourth grade,' I
get nervous. It's too young to understand!
That's a mistake. The Holocaust is much
more de rigeuer today.
When we were growing up, no one
studied it. There's a Hebrew phrase [that
means] "You tried to grab too much, you
didn't grab anything at all." We make too
easy reference and too easy comparison to
the Holocaust. I get very disturbed when
people say, "Isn't what's going on right now
like 1939 in Europe?" and I say no, that's
ridiculous. But people often will make that
statement.
What's going on now is bad. But it's not
a Holocaust; it's not 1939. Jews in most
places are living quite securely, but there
are enough developments on the scene
that there's a cause for concern. I'm not
saying things are good, but let's think stra-
tegically instead of overreacting and not
thinking smart.
• How does the Holocaust and anti-
Semitism play a part in Jewish identity?
LIPSTADT: I think we have to be very
careful not to build Jewish identity on oys
but on joys. We can't build Jewish identity
by saying, "Everyone hates the Jews" —
that's a lousy reason to motivate Jewish
identity. That's why when you say to peo-
ple,"Israel is under attack so you should
support if,' it a very negative way to build
a connection to Judaism. Support Israel
because it's a Jewish homeland, because
it's an amazing country. And it needs your
support because it's under attack.
• So how should younger Jews be edu-
cated about the Holocaust?
LIPSTADT: I would teach about the
Holocaust. I would never say, "Be strong
in your Jewish identity because of the
Holocaust:' that's a terrible message to
teach a younger person.
Be strong in your culture because of
the amazing things that Jewish culture
and heritage and tradition represent. And
because it's yours — not because everyone
wanted to destroy us. Because it has given
so much to the world, it has so much to
teach, it has so much value to it. That's
why you should identify — not because of,
but despite.
Read the full interview text at Nonline.us.