The Jewish Ensemble Theatre presents By Herb Gardner "Herb Gardner's best play. Pungent, deeply felt and very powerful." NOVA: There are respected historians like John Keegan, Gordon Craig and Donald Cameron Watt who say nice things about him as a historian. DL: They say nice things, but about his Holocaust history and his views on Hitler, they say his views are ridiculous. At the trial, John Keegan said that Irving's views about Hider not knowing about the Holocaust are absurd. Craig said the same thing about- his Holocaust history. None of them has ever followed his footnotes in other matters. My question would be, "If they followed his foot- notes, what would they find?" NOVA: In the course of this trial, were there ups and downs? How did it all unfold from your point of view? DL: From my point of view, there were very few downs. We had such a strong case that there was never a time I thought we would lose. I knew -we'd always win on the history; because we knew we had the truth; it's not a sur- prising thing. And research we had done showed the degree to which he manipulated the truth. So I was always sure about that. What I wasn't sure about is that we'd win on the anti-Semitism and the racism. NOVA: Explain those. DL: We demonstrated he is a terrible and-Semite and a terrible racist, and that this was intimately connected to his Holocaust denials; that this is all part of his neo-Nazi, racist, anti-Semitic view of the world. NOVA: The verdict sounds like every- thing you could have wanted. DL: It was a smashing victory. We never dreamt that we would have such a resounding victory NOVA: Do you have any insight into Irving's state of mind? Has he always believed the Holocaust to be a hoax, has he slowly persuaded himself of this, or does he just say it but doesn't believe it? DL: That's such a good question and such a hard one to answer. I believe he knows he's lying. I know he knows he's lying because it's so overt when he makes these things up. But once he makes them up, he sort of convinces himself he's telling the truth. Has he always been a denier? No. He knows the Holocaust happened, but he has now convinced himself that it hasn't happened. If what I'm saying to you doesn't make sense, it's because it does- n't make sense. NOVA: Your book makes it dear that during the 1990s, Holocaust deniers - Clive Barnes, New York Post made con- siderable headway on college cam- puses as far as getting their claims regarded as the "other" side. Where do things b - stand now Are students inoculated David Irving arrives at against court for the start of his these tech- libel action against niques? Deborah Lipstadt. DL: No, I think college students have very short memories, and so you have a maximum four-year and usually three-year cycle of issues on campuses. At the moment there's a pretty strong inoculation, but I think it'll come back in a different form. Performances Wed. 2 p.m. & 7:30 p.m., Thur. 7:30 p.m., Sat. 8 p.m., Sun. 2 p.m. & 7:30 p.m. In The Aaron DeRoy Theatre ENs, ttes., 6600 West Maple Road, West Bloomfield Sponsored by: Oct. 25 - Nov.26, 2000 11-:";killinan For ticket information call 248-788-2900 „TN fax: 248-788-5160 MASCO NOVA: What do you think Holocaust deniers will try next? DL: They'll come up with new argu- ments. They don't go away The racists don't go away. The anti-Semites don't go away. The haters don't go away They just come up with new argu- ments. They'll resurrect themselves one way or the other. But Irving will never have the reputation that he had before. NOVA: What's next for you? DL: I'm writing a book about the trial. I'm writing the book nobody else can write. ❑ Behind The Scenes Melanie Wallace, senior producer of co-productions and acquisitions for NOVA, helped adapt the origi- nal British documentary on the Lipstadt/Irving trial for PBS and American audiences. "It's a bit outside NOVA's usual realm [of scientific programs]," con- cedes the Jewish producer, "but the deniers use pseudo-science to make their claim and we wanted to use science to debunk them." Wallace, 49, who currently lives in Newton, Mass., grew up in Huntington Woods and is a gradu- ate of the University of Michigan. She is the daughter of Renee and the late Stanford Wallace. She currently is in China with her mother, now a resident of Houston, Texas; her husband, Andre Martin, a software engineer; and her daughter, Samantha, 11, to attend the 2000 Beijing International Scientific Film Festival. Wallace has been with WGBH, Boston's PBS station, for more than 15 years. 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