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MR. ABOUREZK: I tell you what. I will say that if you'll say the Palestinians have The second thing I would do is sit down a right to a state. How's that? with Prime Minister Shamir and say, "The United States position is that you should MR. BOOKBINDER: I want to remind negotiate with all of the interested parties our readers that in my presentation I in an international conference, including drafted a single sentence, "Whatever the Soviet Union. Now, you don't have to, mistakes or unfairness surround the crea- because you are a sovereign nation, but if tion of Israel, its right to exist in peace you don't do it, the United States is going with recognized, negotiated borders should to withhold all future aid from Israel." no longer be challenged." In my view, there is never going to be any Now, are you saying you're willing to say something like that . . . sort of peaceful resolution of this matter MR. ABOUREZK:. . You add another con- unless the United States stops writing blank checks for Israel. That's why Israel dition, I won't answer that .. . does whatever it wants to. In contrast to MR. BOOKBINDER: . . . You're willing the way things usually operate, it gets to say something like that, if I'm willing rewarded for its crimes and its sins, not to say something else. I'll tell you exactly what I feel. It's implicit in the first hun- dred pages of the book, but I'll say it now very, very directly. I believe that the last several decades of Arab-Palestinian aspirations should now be recognized and that they should be en- titled to the maximum possible amount of self-governance consistent with peace and recognition in that area. MR. ABOUREZK: What does that mean? MR. BOOKBINDER: I'll tell you exactly what it means. I am not ready to declare that the formula for that self-governance is what you call self-determination, what most people call a state. That is something to be negotiated between the parties punished for them. involved. MR. SHIPLER: Do you think that's Now, there is a process that has been politically realistic? Do you think a agreed to by the major Arab state in the secretary of state would be able to do that? area, Egypt, by Israel, and with the MR. ABOUREZIC: No, of course not. We're cooperation of the United States. A for- talking about the ideal situation. It's not luula exists for the beginning of this pro- politically realistic simply because the cess of maximum self-governance for the Israeli lobby has poured too much money Palestinians. That process would now be in into congressional campaigns and presi- its ninth year if Camp David had been dential primaries, to allow politicians to followed. If that process, starting with say, "Israel, you've got to make a deal." maximum autonomy — genuine, generous MR. SHIPLER: And what would the out- autonomy — demonstrates to the Arabs, come of an international conference ideal- to the Palestinians, to the Israelis, that ly be, from your standpoint? What would they can move even further into a full state, the solution be? I will be the first to cheer. MR. ABOUREZK: Ideally, I think, a peace Now, that's a long answer to your ques- treaty would be negotiated between Israel tion, but that's exactly the way I feel about and all of its enemies in the Middle East, it. including the P.L.O. There would be a MR. ABOUREZK: It sounds to me like Palestinian state that Israel would finally you're against the Palestinian state, Mr. have to recognize, and then define its own Bookbinder, because you've got every con- borders — I think that would be one of the ceivable excuse that you can think of, and major accomplishments of the confer- what everybody else can think of for not ence — and the Palestinians would begin having one. Why don't you say, these peo- to administer their own state. There would ple are entitled to run their own destiny. be anti-hostility treaties among all of these Let them have a state; let them have a nations, supervised by the Soviet Union democracy, a dictatorship, whatever it is and the United States. that they want, and not what you want. The Soviet Union has indicated that it's MR. BOOKBINDER: No, I want to start interested in such an arrangement on more out with substantially more self- than one occasion. And I think the United governance than any previous occupying States would be, provided there wasn't any power gave the Palestinian Arabs. influence from the Israeli lobby. I think MR. SHIPLER: Where do we go from here. that would be the U.S. position if it were If you were secretary of state, what would not skewed by what we euphemistically MR. BOOKBINDER: It's a weird kind of pacifism that leads him to say that he justifies the violence. No pacifist should ever talk that way.